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The Keystone Shutdown: Talking Tar Sands Pipelines With Lara Skinner

stateimpact.npr.org -- This week, the Keystone pipeline had to shut down for days because of possible safety issues on a portion of the line between Missouri and Illinois. The existing Keystone pipeline, which has only been running for a few years, takes heavy oil harvested from sand pits in Canada to refinieries in the Midwest and a massive oil depot in Cushing, Oklahoma. The Keystone XL pipeline will be a large addition to that existing network, and a southern leg is already under construction from Cushing to refineries on the Gulf Coast, facing protests and questions about how the company is using eminent domain to seize private land for the pipeline.

..Dr. Lara Skinner, Associate Director of Research at Cornell University’s Global Labor Institute ..on the current shutdown and some of the safety issues pa

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Submitted Oct 21, 2012 By: teafortwo

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teenitup Champion Author Houston Posts:1,646 Points:249,935 Joined:Sep 2012	Message Posted: Oct 23, 2012 6:38:25 AM Ignore teenitup Report Abuse The newer technology for tar sands production is much less "dangerous".
jrs4125 Champion Author Indiana Posts:2,758 Points:591,745 Joined:Sep 2011	Message Posted: Oct 23, 2012 1:14:12 AM Ignore jrs4125 Report Abuse Better safe than sorry.
teenitup Champion Author Houston Posts:1,646 Points:249,935 Joined:Sep 2012	Message Posted: Oct 22, 2012 6:06:11 AM Ignore teenitup Report Abuse Thankfully, it has now been restarted.
NOTSOGRN Champion Author Michigan Posts:2,056 Points:1,511,265 Joined:Dec 2007	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 11:13:25 PM Ignore NOTSOGRN Report Abuse . . Don't cross a road it's dangerous...filling ones car with gas is dangerous...driving is dangerous...
LetemEatCake Champion Author Oklahoma City Posts:5,596 Points:1,204,730 Joined:Mar 2008	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:25:43 PM Ignore LetemEatCake Report Abuse Absolutely agree Camel1! Thanks for posting Teafortwo....interesting article!
camel1 Champion Author Minnesota Posts:8,270 Points:2,266,615 Joined:Jul 2006	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:23:19 PM Ignore camel1 Report Abuse tar sands are dangerous. the product should not be mined
lowspeed All-Star Author Akron Posts:721 Points:200,305 Joined:Aug 2008	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:15:37 PM Ignore lowspeed Report Abuse Interesting
downstream Champion Author Little Rock Posts:1,109 Points:1,392,065 Joined:Mar 2006	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:14:01 PM Ignore downstream Report Abuse finally, something of substance!
WIWalt Champion Author Wisconsin Posts:1,726 Points:415,545 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:11:27 PM Ignore WIWalt Report Abuse It is no wonder our gas prices are so high when you factor in the price of these cleanups!
wayoung56 Champion Author Alabama Posts:2,800 Points:818,335 Joined:Oct 2006	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:10:21 PM Ignore wayoung56 Report Abuse Interesting article...
shari128 All-Star Author Iowa Posts:573 Points:859,990 Joined:Jun 2010	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:10:13 PM Ignore shari128 Report Abuse Let's be safe wth all the thins that we do!!
MG_Sputnik Champion Author Philadelphia Posts:7,305 Points:1,960,405 Joined:Apr 2006	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:09:47 PM Ignore MG_Sputnik Report Abuse Another BS reason to raise prices.
mrreferee Champion Author Savannah Posts:1,336 Points:557,530 Joined:Jun 2011	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:09:44 PM Ignore mrreferee Report Abuse shutting down for safety issues is fine. most people would not complain
Math6149 All-Star Author Jacksonville Posts:873 Points:1,796,375 Joined:Jan 2007	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:07:20 PM Ignore Math6149 Report Abuse So?
Toppers Champion Author Atlanta Posts:9,012 Points:2,470,695 Joined:Mar 2005	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:06:36 PM Ignore Toppers Report Abuse Safety first
WIPACKERFAN Champion Author Chicago Posts:8,804 Points:1,843,450 Joined:Aug 2005	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:06:06 PM Ignore WIPACKERFAN Report Abuse OK
s6sputnik Champion Author Austin Posts:6,222 Points:1,308,130 Joined:Jun 2007	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:05:19 PM Ignore s6sputnik Report Abuse Great
nsdp Champion Author San Antonio Posts:1,117 Points:47,315 Joined:Jun 2012	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 7:42:09 PM Ignore nsdp Report Abuse Yes but it would make the costs probably prohibitive. First every one needs to know Keystone XL was asking for a waiver of ASTM standards for the Maximum Allowable Operating Pressure on the line and then turning around and using pipe that didn't fully meet the safety standard to double down on the risk. This is from the Canadian National Energy Board audit of TransCanada Safety. I remember when Alyeska was built that the pipeline had to pay for independent inspectors on all materials. Everything considered it has performed pretty well. The quality of he steel was decidedly superior. It came from Japanese mills at a time when they were the best in the world. that now belongs to S Korea. The iron ore source is as important as the mill. Carbon, phosphorus and sulfur all affect steel quality. British steels for example tended to be high in sulfur and that was a key in the sinking of the Titanic. Rather than deforming as the better American and German Steels would it fractured and cause a long gash in the side which allowed water to flow in much faster. Best comparison is the fates of the battle cruisers at Jutland. German 11 inch shells penetrate British Armor and caused explosions in four out of 10 battle cruisers British fired 13.5 and 15 inch shells a the German battle cruisers and they all steamed home under their own power. The Swedish iron ore used by Krupp was a considerable part of the difference. I have yet to see any Indian or Chinese steel that matches the quality of the big 5-US, Japan France, Germany or S Korea. In the US the best steel is scrap from WWII era ships which sells at as much as $350/ton over newer scrap. I have reservations about Keystone unless the operating pressure is lowered from the requested 1440psi to under 1000psi. That would reduce the capacity of the line by about 30-40%. I would also insist that nonaffilated inspectors control construction of the line with the authority to shut everything down if something was not right. Alyeska was built that way and the main line has proven to be much better than the field lines ARCO installed and were not supervised. The Yanbu pipeline from Ras Tanura to Yanbu in Saudia Arabia was built on the safety models of Alyeska and has no leaks since completion in 1982. It moves Saudi oil from the production areas over to the Red Sea on the west side and avoids Hormuz. I would not approve the line without rigorous destructive testing of random samples of the pipe and valves. Too many miles between block valves means too much oil will leak in an accident. Too many open items on quality control. Too many lives and too much risk if the line ruptures. Tenneco had an accident 10 years before I started work there that killed 17 people. In 2011,UGI had a major failure and leak that destroyed 8 homes and killed 5 people and severely injured 3 others. Deferred maintenance was blamed. That is an issue that the NEB has leveled charges on after audits of TransCanada's Canadian operations. El Paso had a leak that killed 10 in 2000 and deferred maintenance was the problem. The Tenneco and El Paso lines had better quality steel than what TransCanada appears to have. Things are going to go wrong but 35 leaks in less than 3 years on the existing line is a horrible record. [Edited by: nsdp at 10/21/2012 10:47:45 PM EST]
PDQBlues Champion Author San Diego Posts:7,074 Points:1,448,325 Joined:Jan 2009	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 6:22:34 PM Ignore PDQBlues Report Abuse nsdp: ...ARAMCO/Shell are having to replace all pipe in the distillation unit after a few weeks operation because of manufacturing defects. The new Sandy Creek Powerplant near Waco had pipe failures(stress cracking) on startup that will require complete replacement of piping in the superheater and reheat sections at a cost of $100mill. The Indian supplier common to these two projects is also used by Keystone. What happened to the claim that the pipe would be made in the US and Canada. Too expensive? Corner cutting? The Indian pipe has already demonstrated safety failures found by land owners not Keystone personnel of bulging and stretching both of which are precoursers to stress fractures. This is on the existing line that is less than 10 years old and already has had 35 reportable leaks. Not good maintenance not good engineering. Thank you, nsdp, for your insider insights. Those who continually criticize those people concerned about pipeline safety either are so misinformed about these problems to live in a fantasy, or they have some financial interest in the pipeline regardless of who gets hurt (or worse, killed). Could these oil and tar-sands pipelines be made and constructed safer? Sure, but it's not going to happen unless enforceable laws are in place to force these companies to do so.
nsdp Champion Author San Antonio Posts:1,117 Points:47,315 Joined:Jun 2012	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 11:22:44 AM Ignore nsdp Report Abuse MAC48 you might as well tell the whole truth. I am a Valero Retiree and know what the issues are. I signed pipeline safety reports for 5 years and it would have been my ass that went to jail if something was wrong. They are identical to Shell Motiva's problem in late May this year(losing 325,000 barrels a day had a lot to do with this summers higher prices): "Motiva Enterprises LLC moved to prepare half its giant Port Arthur, Texas, refinery for an extended shut-down this week after a major glitch with a new unit, closing down other units and reducing oil shipments from Saudi Arabia. In the first public acknowledgment of the severity of the problem at the plant, Motiva co-owner Royal Dutch Shell Plc said late on Wednesday that the stricken 325,000 barrel-per-day (bpd) unit was shut due to "corrosion problems," as originally reported earlier this week by Reuters" That occurred within weeks of starting up a unit designed to handle Saudi Wafra crude which is very similar in properties to the dilute bitumen to be carried by Keystone. ARAMCO/Shell are having to replace all pipe in the distillation unit after a few weeks operation because of manufacturing defects. The new Sandy Creek Powerplant near Waco had pipe failures(stress cracking) on startup that will require complete replacement of piping in the superheater and reheat sections at a cost of $100mill. The Indian supplier common to these two projects is also used by Keystone. What happened to the claim that the pipe would be made in the US and Canada. Too expensive? Corner cutting? The Indian pipe has already demonstrated safety failures found by land owners not Keystone personnel of bulging and stretching both of which are precoursers to stress fractures. This is on the existing line that is less than 10 years old and already has had 35 reportable leaks. Not good maintenance not good engineering. Who do you think you are fooling? [Edited by: nsdp at 10/21/2012 2:26:01 PM EST]
Gnusman53 Champion Author San Diego Posts:7,003 Points:1,111,445 Joined:Feb 2004	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 11:17:43 AM Ignore Gnusman53 Report Abuse Seems Mac48 wants more regulations..... (grin).....damn liberal (bigger grin)
Gnusman53 Champion Author San Diego Posts:7,003 Points:1,111,445 Joined:Feb 2004	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 10:53:41 AM Ignore Gnusman53 Report Abuse Simple math. In just two years there has been 35 leaks/spills. The company predicted just 5 in 50 years. Using simple math, people living along the route can expect 840 more spills/leaks in the next 50 years (both minor and major). People living along the Kalamazoo River needed just one to destroy their neighborhood... It took Enbridge more than two years to even marginally clean up that mess in the Kalamazoo.....and it still destroyed the local ecostystem...
briinnc Champion Author North Carolina Posts:2,705 Points:834,820 Joined:Jan 2010	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 10:49:18 AM Ignore briinnc Report Abuse We need to start using eminent domain on Canadian land, see if they like it.
Ahking Champion Author Orange County Posts:3,507 Points:603,450 Joined:May 2011	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 10:09:01 AM Ignore Ahking Report Abuse people & environmental safety are paramount.
AlgaeNOW Champion Author Wyoming Posts:1,012 Points:312,030 Joined:Sep 2005	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 9:52:00 AM Ignore AlgaeNOW Report Abuse k
Discovery02 Champion Author Colorado Springs Posts:2,560 Points:310,665 Joined:May 2012	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 9:21:46 AM Ignore Discovery02 Report Abuse All the more reason government oversight is required.
playtimeCLE Champion Author Cleveland Posts:8,555 Points:1,543,400 Joined:Nov 2008	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:58:40 AM Ignore playtimeCLE Report Abuse Wonders why they didn't plan the XL pipeline to run right next to this one. It would seem to solve land & routing issues.
Ticobird Champion Author Huntsville Posts:3,231 Points:1,116,015 Joined:Oct 2009	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:25:53 AM Ignore Ticobird Report Abuse The reported info was a little lacking IMO. No conclusions were drawn.
eye-spy Champion Author Quebec Posts:4,588 Points:2,417,845 Joined:Feb 2005	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:21:53 AM Ignore eye-spy Report Abuse "Risk" is just a part of business. Reducing risk is the key to success.
greatartiste All-Star Author New Jersey Posts:540 Points:105,810 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:21:07 AM Ignore greatartiste Report Abuse disaster...
TravelinMan52 Champion Author Augusta Posts:1,925 Points:963,645 Joined:May 2008	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:18:27 AM Ignore TravelinMan52 Report Abuse Safety should always be the first concern...
Nicoalbum Champion Author Ottawa Posts:6,016 Points:1,188,200 Joined:Jan 2010	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 8:06:27 AM Ignore Nicoalbum Report Abuse An ill-planned project
lesabreAZ Champion Author Phoenix Posts:1,691 Points:412,455 Joined:Nov 2011	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 7:59:13 AM Ignore lesabreAZ Report Abuse The NPR crowd uses oil, so why complain
alex395 Champion Author Louisville Posts:2,049 Points:276,640 Joined:Jan 2007	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 7:43:49 AM Ignore alex395 Report Abuse Don't know how we ever got anything done without a risk assessment. I say Lara Skinner and NPR are part of the risk.
teenitup Champion Author Houston Posts:1,646 Points:249,935 Joined:Sep 2012	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 7:41:29 AM Ignore teenitup Report Abuse MAC48 and doeslayersr, great comments.
Rhino8of8 Champion Author Wisconsin Posts:1,245 Points:374,390 Joined:Jan 2012	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 7:26:30 AM Ignore Rhino8of8 Report Abuse So, now where to go read the other side of the story
Norm10 Champion Author British Columbia Posts:3,342 Points:162,925 Joined:Dec 2010	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 7:21:58 AM Ignore Norm10 Report Abuse So just fix it already!
atdinut Champion Author California Posts:1,608 Points:353,985 Joined:Apr 2012	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 7:16:26 AM Ignore atdinut Report Abuse Trouble.......
dogsdog Veteran Author Sacramento Posts:314 Points:31,840 Joined:Dec 2009	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 7:09:42 AM Ignore dogsdog Report Abuse NPR-EPA ?????
ghoag Champion Author Twin Cities Posts:1,128 Points:260,750 Joined:Aug 2012	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 7:04:27 AM Ignore ghoag Report Abuse ok
bills299 Champion Author Atlanta Posts:3,366 Points:904,490 Joined:May 2005	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 6:54:05 AM Ignore bills299 Report Abuse This could help lower prices and boost supplies!!
Canucktree Champion Author Alberta Posts:4,896 Points:1,020,625 Joined:Dec 2008	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 6:38:49 AM Ignore Canucktree Report Abuse We already mix it all up in Edmonton and pipeline it down to you already, you will just be able to have 25% more. Maybe you could reopen the 25% of the refineries Bush closed 5 years ago?! Remember the oil peak, just before the crash?!
pscamp Champion Author Ottawa Posts:3,277 Points:475,135 Joined:May 2011	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 6:36:37 AM Ignore pscamp Report Abuse OK
Evilmaddog Champion Author British Columbia Posts:3,322 Points:957,550 Joined:Aug 2010	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 6:30:44 AM Ignore Evilmaddog Report Abuse Build more refineries in Canada
imcheep Champion Author New Mexico Posts:2,492 Points:649,830 Joined:Apr 2005	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 6:29:06 AM Ignore imcheep Report Abuse Look at the source...
merlinCO Champion Author Colorado Posts:1,640 Points:341,395 Joined:Mar 2012	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 6:27:32 AM Ignore merlinCO Report Abuse Have Canada build refineries!
Buckeyee Champion Author Maine Posts:4,608 Points:899,005 Joined:May 2010	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 6:12:44 AM Ignore Buckeyee Report Abuse Look at the source of this article, NPR= National Progressive Radio sure it isn't slanted.
Joeski1 Champion Author New Jersey Posts:10,001 Points:1,741,835 Joined:Dec 2004	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 6:00:53 AM Ignore Joeski1 Report Abuse Look at the bright side. Right now it aint leaking any more.
amoshins Champion Author Trenton Posts:2,195 Points:641,645 Joined:Apr 2011	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 5:55:36 AM Ignore amoshins Report Abuse Vote me in
crmedic Champion Author Arkansas Posts:2,669 Points:224,150 Joined:Jul 2011	Message Posted: Oct 21, 2012 5:30:49 AM Ignore crmedic Report Abuse I'm for the pipeline!